格好いい

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Mukade
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格好いい

Post by Mukade » Mon 02.27.2006 2:27 am

This came up in the Introductions section, and I thought I'd start a new thread rather than take over that person's introduction. ;)

The question that came up was-

"1) Don't attach だ to いい adjectives... But wait a minute...2) is 格好いい an い- or な-adjective? The dictionary lists it as な, 3) but can't you say 格好よくない?"

Well yes, yes and yes, and yes.

1) You shouldn't stick だ onto い-adjectives.

2) Remember that いい has a funky conjugation:
いい、よくない、よかった、よくなかった
The いい itself is not supposed to* be conjugated as いくない or いかった. Instead, it should be changed to よい and then conjugated like a normal い-adjective from there. You will, however, often see いいじゃない.Perhaps this is why it was listed as a な-adjective. It really kinda has properties of both. I guess there's no grammatical term for "hermaphrodite adjective," so it often gets stuck in one category or the other.

3) If you think about how いい is used, you'll recall that いいじゃない and よくない are both used, and both tend to mean the same thing. So, in the end, it should be possible to say 格好いいじゃない and 格好よくない. I'm not sure whether one would be considered more proper than the other, however.

Ahh, the joys of learning a foreign language.

-----

*Note:
I say supposed to, because it seems there are regions of Japan that will use いくない and いかった. This is not considered standard, proper Japanese, however.
Last edited by Mukade on Mon 02.27.2006 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Oracle
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RE: 格好いい

Post by Oracle » Mon 02.27.2006 5:05 am

Mukade wrote:

3) If you think about how いい is used, you'll recall that いいじゃない and よくない are both used, and both tend to mean the same thing. So, in the end, it should be possible to say 格好いいじゃない and 格好よくない. I'm not sure whether one would be considered more proper than the other, however.
You wouldn't use 格好いいじゃない as the opposite of 格好いい, it's definately 格好よくない. If you do come across 格好いいじゃない it's probably:

a) pronounced with a rising tone and short/casual for 格好いいじゃないですか?
b) It's short for 格好いいじゃないか! ( = Isn't it cool! )
b) the じゃない is actually not part of the いい but applying to the whole phrase..
  A: これって格好いい!  B:「格好いい」じゃないでしょう!玩具じゃないんだから。。

Or were you asking "Is there a difference between 格好よくない? and 格好いいじゃない?" ?

Probably best just to use 格好悪い and avoid confusion all together! ;)
Last edited by Oracle on Mon 02.27.2006 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: 格好いい

Post by keatonatron » Mon 02.27.2006 7:18 am

I got to the bottom of it.

格好いい *IS* an i-adjective, just like I thought. 格好いいじゃない is used quite often, but only as the question form (isn't this cool?). The negative form is still 格好よくない and past is 格好よかった.

I have notified the WWWJDIC so hopefully that will be corrected soon. B)

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RE: 格好いい

Post by Mukade » Mon 02.27.2006 7:43 pm

Oracle wrote:
Or were you asking "Is there a difference between 格好よくない? and 格好いいじゃない?" ?
Well, I know the difference between the two.

格好いいじゃない - Isn't that cool? (trying to convince the other)
格好よくない - Isn't that cool? (looking for agreement from the other)

What I was wondering is whether or not one is considered more "proper" Japanese over the other.

I think いい gets used so many ways so often that many Japanese are losing touch with how to use it properly. Kind of like English speakers and who/whom or that/which. When I looked up いい in the Koujien, it had a few grammatical notes, but it really didn't explain fully. I think I'll go to the bookstore today and see if I can find one of those よく間違う日本語 books. Maybe it'll be in there.

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RE: 格好いい

Post by AJBryant » Mon 02.27.2006 10:06 pm

格好よくない - Isn't that cool? (looking for agreement from the other)
That one is exactly what it says: "uncool."

Tony

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RE: 格好いい

Post by Mukade » Mon 02.27.2006 11:41 pm

Well, it depends on the intonation.

Said with a flat tone, it means "uncool," as you said.

But said with a rising tone it would mean "isn't it cool?"

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RE: 格好いい

Post by rodegia » Tue 02.28.2006 1:03 am

If you look at the parts, 格好 is a noun, meaing shape or form. いい is a i-adj meaning good.格好がいい->格好いい To avoid cross positing, please also see my post in the other thread as well.

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RE: 格好いい

Post by rodegia » Tue 02.28.2006 2:21 am

(trying to kill cross posts, from other thread:)
Oracle wrote:
rodegia wrote:
ところで、I have yet to see a Japanese person write 格好いい. My cell even pops it up as カッコイイ
Probably because it's かっこう , not かっこ (which is 括弧, or "brackets")
カッコイイ is the colloquial of かっこういい which in kanji is 格好いい. I was unclear when I wrote "pops up in my cell". What I ment was the auto-predict function at the bottom. If I type in かっこういい it will give me the option of 格好いい. In the numerous mails I have received from friends and students, I have yet to see the kanji and only the colloquial form.

The only time the kanji would really be used is in formal writing, in which case it's not a suitable word (Imagine writing a report about that "cool paradigm")
Last edited by rodegia on Tue 02.28.2006 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: 格好いい

Post by keatonatron » Tue 02.28.2006 2:41 am

I've never seen カッコイイ.

I've seen and used 格好いい (the kanji) in informal communications numerous times.

Do you live in the Kansai region by the way? I think this phrase can be handled different ways depending on location.

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RE: 格好いい

Post by keatonatron » Tue 02.28.2006 7:26 pm

Here's something interesting:

I was chattin' with Jim Breen (I'm such a name dropper!) and he said that, while uncommon, かっこいいな does exist. However, 格好よい is much much more common. I'm curious as to where the first is used... I assume it's a kansai thing. Maybe all us peeps who live in Japan could ask our friends or coworkers to see if they use it? Then we can figure out where it's most common.

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RE: 格好いい

Post by rodegia » Tue 02.28.2006 8:15 pm

I was watching TV last night and (anyone who has not seen Japanese TV, there are subs everywhere) in the middle of a string of kanji カッコイイ popped up (I was just flipping through the channels and missed what the conversation was about 〜カッコイイ奴ねと書いてた ).

I'm on Shikoku (Ehime). Kansai ben isn't spoken here, it's a real hick dialect, but not much of one at all.
Last edited by rodegia on Tue 02.28.2006 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: 格好いい

Post by Kinzokusei no Inu » Tue 04.11.2006 9:26 pm

It is hard to contradict someone like Jim Breen, but my experience has shown me that カッコいい、カッコよかった、etc. are extremely common. When I read my favorite band's BBS, it's almost always the form used, for a very popular word. Only occasionally have I seen it written 格好いい、but I believe a lot of that has to do with the personal preference of the individual writing. It seems to vary widely from person to person as to how much kanji and katakana they use in their writing.
今を生きろ!

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RE: 格好いい

Post by Mukade » Wed 04.12.2006 12:36 am

The difference between 格好いい and カッコイイ (from the 大辞泉 dictionary):

かっこ‐い・い【かっこ▽好い】
[形]《「かっこ」は「かっこう(格好)」の音変化》主に子供や若者が、人や物の外見・行動が現代風で自分の好みにぴったりする、という気持ちで使う語。すばらしい。「彼の髪形は=Eい」「=Eい生き方」かっこ悪い。

So, カッコイイ is a corruption (read: slang) of the proper term 格好いい, typically used by children and young people.

It would be equivalent to the difference between "What's up?" and "Wassup?"

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