と and Hortative?

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Infidel
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と and Hortative?

Post by Infidel » Thu 09.21.2006 1:30 am

Coco san wrote:
Indifelさん。これはどうでしょうか。

1)〜verb としている
田中さんが買おうとしているパンコン。 → パャRン that Tanaka is trying to buy.
田中さんが聴こうとしている音楽。 → 音楽 that Tanaka is trying to listen.
田中さんが食べようとしている納豆。→ なっとう that Tanaka is trying to eat.
(〜しようとする+て形)
どなたか英文間違ってたら直してください。
can change 買おうと思っている/聴こうと思っている/食べようと思っている

2) 
その男 は ハゲ と 呼ばれています。
Book は 日本語で 本 と いいます。
Thank you Coco san

Just when a light begins to dawn a rain cloud comes.

I was beginning to think I understood, and then realize I'm even more confused. I just noticed that the verb before と is in hortative form. I was thinking 買おう was just a misspelling, but with 3 different examples all in horative, I realized it wasn't a mistake at all, though I had to look up 買おう because I've only seen 買いましょう.

is it horative+としている for trying or will any verb conjugation work?
can change 買おうと思っている/聴こうと思っている/食べようと思っている
This makes me wonder, why not を考える/を考えています? What is the difference?
「変な外人さん」とよんでくれぇ!
________↑  
You can tell I had some help with that. It was Clay or Rich, I can't remember which.

comparisons and the to particle are my weakest parts of grammar, that I'm aware of anyway.
Last edited by Infidel on Thu 09.21.2006 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。

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chikara
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by chikara » Thu 09.21.2006 1:48 am

考える is to "think about something" or "consider something" which is different to 思う which is to "think" or "feel".
Don't complain to me that people kick you when you're down. It's your own fault for lying there

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Infidel
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by Infidel » Thu 09.21.2006 2:00 am

田中さんが買おうと思っているパャRンはとても高いそうです。
"I hear the computer that Mr. Tanaka is thinking of buying is very expensive.
考える is to "think about something" or "consider something" which is different to 思う which is to "think" or "feel".
So the question remains, why not 考える?

Tanaka san is definitely "considering" buying a computer. If anything, 思う looks like the weaker verb.
Last edited by Infidel on Thu 09.21.2006 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。

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chikara
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by chikara » Thu 09.21.2006 2:10 am

I would interpret it that after "consideration" Tanaka-san "thinks" he will buy that PC. He "feels" that is the PC for him. The decision has been made.
Don't complain to me that people kick you when you're down. It's your own fault for lying there

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RE: と and Hortative?/思うvs考える

Post by coco » Thu 09.21.2006 2:17 am

Infidel wrote:
keatonatron wrote:
Infidel wrote:
と思って is another construction that gives me fits.
That's not a special construction;
That's why the fact that I have issue with it is such a big deal.
in this sentence it's the normal ている form: 思っている - "thinking". As in "The computer that Tanakasan is thinking about buying".
No, it's TO omotteiru

Omou is always appearing with TO even though none of the other verbs seem to. Other verbs take wo or ga, but omou is always taking to and it doesn't make any sense.

I keep on reading, "the computer that tanakasan is and buying think."
このスレッドから移動させました。
を考える/を考えています?
○田中さんが買おう 思っているパャRン は とても高い。
○田中さんが買おう 考えているパャRン は とても高い
×田中さんが買おう 考えているパャRン は とても高い。

Tae kimさんのところに説明がありました。Volitional form?

○田中さんが購入 考えているパャRン は とても高い
×田中さんが購入 考えているパャRン は とても高い。
×田中さんが購入を 思っているパャRン は とても高い。

○田中さんは「納豆は靴下の臭いと似ている」感じている。
×田中さんは「納豆は靴下の臭いと似ている」感じている。

おまけ。
田中さんは納豆が嫌いらしい。 
(男性でも「らしい」は使います) 
Last edited by coco on Thu 09.21.2006 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Schattenjedi

RE: と and Hortative?

Post by Schattenjedi » Thu 09.21.2006 3:53 am

Infidel wrote:

is it horative+としている for trying or will any verb conjugation work?
I'm going to assume that horative means volitional. 〜ようとする means "to try to do 〜". Other conjugation forms don't work.
Infidel wrote:
can change 買おうと思っている/聴こうと思っている/食べようと思っている
This makes me wonder, why not を考える/を考えています? What is the difference?
〜ようと思う is a set grammar construction that means "I think I will 〜"

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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by keatonatron » Thu 09.21.2006 8:16 am

Infidel wrote:
So the question remains, why not 考える?
The two are distinctly different... on the Japanese side of my brain. :(

考える is really like "think about".

本当に買いたいかどうか、もうちょっと考えてください。
Please think a little more about if you really want to buy it or not.

A:決めた?
B:まだ考えてる。
A: Did you decide?
B: I'm still thinking.

思う is simply what someone is thinking (like, their actual thoughts). This would be more like the voice in your head, which people often quote following the same grammar patterns as quoting something someone said:

行きたいなぁと言った - "Man, I wanna go" he said.
行きたいなぁと思った - "Man, I wanna go" I thought.

パーティーは明日だと思ってた。
I was thinking the party is tomorrow. (Basically, the person was thinking literally "the party is tomorrow")

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Infidel
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by Infidel » Thu 09.21.2006 10:05 am

思う is simply what someone is thinking (like, their actual thoughts).
Ahhhh, If that is the difference then it begins to make sense.

Arigatou.
なるほど。
さっぱりわからん。

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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by shin1ro » Thu 09.21.2006 1:12 pm

Keatonatron, when I read quickly the first question, I thought the two (思う and 考える) were almost the same. But you're RIGHT!! I realized your examples aren't interchangeable after I think about it. i.e. they're different.

はじめは「思う」と「考える」はほとんど同じと思ったけど、よく考えたら、違うとわかりました。 ;)
Last edited by shin1ro on Thu 09.21.2006 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by richvh » Thu 09.21.2006 1:56 pm

shin1ro wrote:
Keatonatron, when I read quickly the first question, I thought the two (思う and 考える) were almost the same. But you're RIGHT!! I realized your examples aren't interchangeable after I think about it. i.e. they're different.
...when I quickly read the first question... (your version isn't really wrong, but is awkward, I think)
I realized your examples weren't interchangeable after I thought about it.
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by two_heads_talking » Thu 09.21.2006 2:02 pm

hmm, i don't think i ever thought these two words were the same..


思う to think or to have an opinion about..

in English i would read it like, I think blue is a better color.
in equivalent you could say , in my opinion blue is a better color.

考える to think about or to consider..

in English i would read it like, I need to think about that.
in equivalent you could say, I need to consider that.

in fact thinking about it this way you would never end a sentence in japanese with と考える but you can end it with と思う.

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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by keatonatron » Fri 09.22.2006 1:01 am

two_heads_talking wrote:
in fact thinking about it this way you would never end a sentence in japanese with と考える
You can. It means something like "hold the opinion that..."

Infidel - Don't worry about this meaning, it will just confuse you :D I myself am not completely clear on the correct usage...
Last edited by keatonatron on Fri 09.22.2006 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by shin1ro » Fri 09.22.2006 11:59 pm

Oh, I still have problem to locate adverbs.... It's not the first time....Thanks richvh san!
And I have to be careful about 時制 more too! (bow)
Last edited by shin1ro on Sat 09.23.2006 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by richvh » Sat 09.23.2006 12:22 am

shin1ro wrote:
Oh, I still have problem to locate adverbs.... It's not the first time....Thanks richvh san!
And I have to be careful about 時制 more too! (bow)
"I still have problems placing adverbs"; "And I have to be more careful about 時制 too!"
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tkbits
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RE: と and Hortative?

Post by tkbits » Sat 09.23.2006 12:29 am

The various "think" and "know" words are difficult because they don't divide the world of thinking and knowledge in the same way as English.

For example, 考える and 分かる in appropriate contexts can both be translated as "understand". 分かる is, I suspect, more of a gestalt or immediate understanding. Whereas 考える might involve pondering, musing, or protracted reasoning about what one understands.

When you confuse 思う and 考える, I believe you are looking at two different ways of "having thoughts", as we say in English. I'm thinking that 思う tends towards impressionism and wistful thinking, while 考える tends towards "focused" thinking.

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